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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:22 pm 
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friendly kitty

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Bugger !!!

I thought I'd found a pair of 4 piston calipers with close piston sizing (and at the right price) to put on my Voalgi Liscio (coz i like fiddling ...), but just found out that they are sold with DOT 5.1 fluid and my Parabox system runs Mineral oil. :evil:

Double bugger !!!!

The calipers were to be the Avid 2013 X0 Trail 4 piston ones. They operated with a 9.5mm master cyl and have 16 & 14mm pistons, so would have been a good system match in terms of total piston area for the calipers I was replacing.


I know that the seals in either system won't tolerate the fluid change, but is there anyway that I could change the seals in the calipoer to be compatible with Mineral oil ?

HELP 8-)


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 12:07 am 
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bad kitty!
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Probably not much of a chance.
Generally spoken, those square seals are not available off the shelf in those sizes.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:44 am 
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friendly kitty

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That's what I thought.

Bloody different fluids. Bah !!!!

Oh well, back to the drawing board ....


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:50 am 
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bad kitty!
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Just get DOT fluid out of your life, that'll sort it. ;)


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 11:30 am 
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friendly kitty

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Magura wrote:
Just get DOT fluid out of your life, that'll sort it. ;)


Magura :)


How i read it, he already HAS gotten dot fluid out of his life, and wants to keep it that way.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:25 pm 
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friendly kitty

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Location: Santa Ana, California
Why the Avids, I thought you were going for ZEE's?

If you want to save cash get an old set of Shimano 755's, they're mineral oil. I have a set mated to 2012 XTR levers and they're the best brakes I've ever used.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 3:54 pm 
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Dat' fork... :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 5:57 pm 
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friendly kitty

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Gets me every time :lol:

I wonder how the AMP's would look on a carbon Titus :thinking: :shifty:


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:23 pm 
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friendly kitty

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Jon Richard wrote:
Why the Avids, I thought you were going for ZEE's?

If you want to save cash get an old set of Shimano 755's, they're mineral oil. I have a set mated to 2012 XTR levers and they're the best brakes I've ever used.


I'll see if I can find a set - what piston size are they ?

The big issue is the relative piston size of the calipers I'm replacing. If the total piston area is too different, the lever will be mushy.

The Saint M820/Zee M640 use 2 x 18mm & 2 x 16mm which ends up a bit too much of a differential. The Avid X0 Trails used 2 x 16mm and 2 x 14mm which would be much closer and they are cheaper.

The next option is something like the XTR M985 (or 675) as they are 2 x 22mm pistons, but still have a nice big pad.

I'll have a look at the M755's, thanks


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 11:16 pm 
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friendly kitty

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MichaelB wrote:
Jon Richard wrote:
Why the Avids, I thought you were going for ZEE's?

If you want to save cash get an old set of Shimano 755's, they're mineral oil. I have a set mated to 2012 XTR levers and they're the best brakes I've ever used.


I'll see if I can find a set - what piston size are they ?

The big issue is the relative piston size of the calipers I'm replacing. If the total piston area is too different, the lever will be mushy.

The Saint M820/Zee M640 use 2 x 18mm & 2 x 16mm which ends up a bit too much of a differential. The Avid X0 Trails used 2 x 16mm and 2 x 14mm which would be much closer and they are cheaper.

The next option is something like the XTR M985 (or 675) as they are 2 x 22mm pistons, but still have a nice big pad.

I'll have a look at the M755's, thanks


It's hard to measure the pistons super accurately with the 6" caliper I have but I get 2 X 15mm & 2 X 13.5mm. I'm using M985 levers and the balance between modulation and braking effort is superb, so although there is less area than the M985 22mm calipers I'm confident the leverage ratio is close to ideal. The pads are nearly identical dimensions to Saint/ Zee pads, just a hair less width.

If you go this route know that these are not post mount, they're direct mount for IS and come in different mount heights front and rear. A rear caliper is meant for a 160mm rotor but when mounted on the front it works with a 180mm rotor. The front is meant for a 160mm rotor but must use a 140mm rotor if mounted on the back.

Also, the original Goodrich hoses probably won't mate to your levers. I found that Jagwire banjo fittings couple to the caliper well if you use long enough banjo bolts.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 4:11 am 
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friendly kitty

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Hi Jon,

Thanks for that info. Yes, re the mounting, I saw that when I did some googling. My bike has post mounts, so an IS mount caliper would be a PITA.

I think I have found some 14mm seals, but need to confirm what fluid they are compatible with. The 16mm I can seem to get easy, but it's the 14mm that is the harder one, but I'll keep looking. :pray:

I'm so peeved re the Avid X0 Trails, as they are within 2.5% of the piston area of the original calipers !! The M985 (or 2 x 22mm piston) are within 10% (bigger area), the Saint M820/Zee M640 and Formula R1 (2 x 24mm) are 31% greater piston area, and the TRP Quadiem & Hope M4/V4 ( 4 x 16mm) are about 16% greater piston area.

Thanks for the input so far guys, appreciate it :clap:


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:53 pm 
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friendly kitty

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All may not be lost !!! :D

Have found two potential sources of seals. Following them up at the moment, so fingers crossed.

Also found out that the older Hope Mono M4's also had 16 & 14mm pistons, but used to run DOT fluid as well. Also found some mentions that Hope released a seal kit that is compatible with Mineral oil and mentions of Grimeca and Shimano levers, so it may still be feasible.

Coupled with the big pad area of the Avid X0's, I may be on to a winner :pray:

I'll keep you posted !!!


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:00 am 
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friendly kitty

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Looks like its not going to work :(

Unless I am lucky and can get some seals OTS from the local seal supplier, it will be custom seals at $150 per caliper. Not.

Not sure what to do here. Will keep an eye out for some older calipers like the M755 that Jon suggested, but as Shimano don't do seal kits, it would be a bit of a gamble

Oh well :evil:


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:34 am 
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bad kitty!
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Have you given Magura USA a call?

They just might be the place to go, as they've had all sorts of piston diameters over the years.


Magura :)

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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:53 am 
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friendly kitty

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Ok will try them. Did they make 4 piston calipers ?


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:08 pm 
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bad kitty!
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Yes, Gustav M.


Magura :)

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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:28 am 
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friendly kitty

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Magura wrote:
Yes, Gustav M.


Magura :)


Will confirm with Magura, but it appears that the Gustav M had 18mm pistons (according to this link http://www.support-english.magura.com/index.php?showtopic=765 )

:(


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:44 pm 
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stealth kitty
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MichaelB wrote:
Magura wrote:
Yes, Gustav M.


Magura :)


Will confirm with Magura, but it appears that the Gustav M had 18mm pistons (according to this link http://www.support-english.magura.com/index.php?showtopic=765 )

:(


Can't believe that the someone with an engineering degree in that thread did not understand static fluid mechanics from the get go.....hehe

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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 10:44 pm 
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friendly kitty

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Shibiwan wrote:
Can't believe that the someone with an engineering degree in that thread did not understand static fluid mechanics from the get go.....hehe

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


Me too.

Found more info on the web re M810 piston sizing, and that pointed to different piston sizing w.r.t. M820, but the odd bit was that the measurements were not even metric numbers, so not really sure now if the 16mm/14mm for the Avids I am chasing is actually that, or some other number like 15.78/13.85.

Hmmmm, not sure


I can take a punt on the Avid X0 Trail and hope like hell that there is an OTS seal option, or have to go the custom route (anyone for some extra seals .... ?) , or spend similar money and get the Hope V-Twin system with the M4 calipers.

Such dilemma's ..... :|

I prefer the Avid calipers due to pad area, but not sure .....

I like to tinker and be a bit different :P


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:52 am 
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friendly kitty

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Have sourced Avid seal kit, so will use that to hopefully find an OTS solution ...

Fingers crossed 8-)


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:17 am 
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bad kitty!
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How about just cutting custom seals?


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:50 am 
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friendly kitty

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Magura wrote:
How about just cutting custom seals?


Magura :)


It would be A$27.50 per seal to get custom jobbies made up. Given that there is 4 per caliper, it gets pretty expensive ....

Given your talents displayed to date on numerous projects, I have no doubt that you would be capable of such feats, but sadly, I am not :|


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:24 am 
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bad kitty!
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Sanding down O-rings would probably be an option.
That's just a matter of patience.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:16 am 
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friendly kitty

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Magura wrote:
Sanding down O-rings would probably be an option.
That's just a matter of patience.


Magura :)


Given my life depends on my sanding ability, I think I'll stick to buying some ..... :whistle:


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:57 am 
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bad kitty!
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MichaelB wrote:
Magura wrote:
Sanding down O-rings would probably be an option.
That's just a matter of patience.


Magura :)


Given my life depends on my sanding ability, I think I'll stick to buying some ..... :whistle:


LOL! ;)

In a case like this, it's not all that hard to test things, and if they pass the test (simply applying force on the brake), they work.
How long they will work, would take some time to find out, but the good news is, that there's a long way from working proper, to failing completely.
Just like all other seals, you'll see a minor leak, long before something dramatic happens.
So to keep things safe, all you need to do is to inspect your brakes prior to riding, and that you ought to do anyway, so no difference there.


Magura :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:51 pm 
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friendly kitty

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I like your thinking !!!

I'll get the seal kit in and then see what the seal supplier comes up with.


One thing though, why is it that US based sites typically have utterly RIDICULOUS shipping costs. The prices for shipping ranged from USD$36 - $85 !! :laughing-rolling:

All for a handfull of seals, a few bolts and 4 plastic pistons :laughing-rollingyellow:

I then ended up sourcing from the UK for a postage cost equal to USD$6.50.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:01 pm 
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bad kitty!
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Well, around here rumor has it, that Americans are generally not all that clever, so maybe some smart Americans, are trying to take advantage of that? ;)

That aside, are you sure those seals you ordered, are mineral oil compatible?


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:05 pm 
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No, this is a genuine Avid kit, so it's not mineral oil compatible. The seals will be used for sizing purposes only. Pistons & bolts will be useable, and useful for seal sizing as well.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Ok, so it's time for O-ring shopping?


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:15 pm 
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friendly kitty

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Magura wrote:
Ok, so it's time for O-ring shopping?


Magura :)


When they arrive, yes. Also have a seal kit for a Hope Mono M4 (same piston sizes as the Avid Xo Trail, but still DOT fluid ...... :evil: ) on the way, so will be interesting to see if there is any difference in sizing.


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